Getting rid of SCRIPTPATH

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Andy
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Getting rid of SCRIPTPATH

Post by Andy » Mon Sep 15, 2003 11:53 am

After the many problems we've seen associated with scriptpath. We've decided to remove it. The only reason we need it is because of Netscape 4.0 and as this browsers day are numbered it seems pointless structuring the menu for a soon to be defunct browser.

So, here is what we propose. Remove the scriptpath variable completely and replace it with a much less troublesome <script> reference technique.

Here's what we propose.

Code: Select all

<SCRIPT language=JavaScript src="/milonic_src.js" type=text/javascript></SCRIPT>	
<script language=JavaScript>
if(ns4)_d.write("<scr"+"ipt language=JavaScript src=/mmenuns4.js><\/scr"+"ipt>");		
  else _d.write("<scr"+"ipt language=JavaScript src=/mmenudom.js><\/scr"+"ipt>"); 
</script>

<SCRIPT language=JavaScript src="/menu_data.php" type=text/javascript></SCRIPT>
Can anybody see any problems with the above. Doing it this way allows the user to declare the path to the files from within each HTML page. Not quite what we wanted to do but it is at least much easier to use.

Let me know what you think

Andy

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Post by Hergio » Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:58 pm

Andy,
I guess it simplifies it a bit. And for those that just don't want to support ns4 (like me because I dont need to) can leave it out, hehe. Yeah its another line of code but the placement seems more intuitive and easier to follow. It will also make troubleshooting of peoples code easier now. Guess its the best idea because it will eliminiate the problem, hopefully.
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Post by John » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:10 pm

We'll still have the problem of trying to teach server-relative addressing, but we had that anyway. As for me, when my sites start getting 'deep' I use includes for the calls, so it makes no difference. We'll have our hands full in the conversion as far as support is concerned, and Andy will have to update the docs.

Overall, with one less file to worry about, I would hope it makes it easier for the folks.
John

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Post by Andy » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:15 pm

Docs are done - There may be remnants remaining here and there though.

The directory structure problem is a big one and something we can do little about. It's been around for almost as long as the computer itself but some people have a big problem getting their heads around it.

Although, if the few people we advise on this subject actually listened to what we told them, life would be just a tad sweeter. Am I sounding cynical? :}

Cheers
Andy

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Post by John » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:26 pm

Andy wrote:Docs are done - There may be remnants remaining here and there though.
We will check... :roll:
Andy wrote:The directory structure problem is a big one and something we can do little about. It's been around for almost as long as the computer itself but some people have a big problem getting their heads around it.

Although, if the few people we advise on this subject actually listened to what we told them, life would be just a tad sweeter. Am I sounding cynical? :}
Not at all. Actually - you beat me to it. I just couldn't find a polite way to phrase it :!: :lol:
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Post by Andy » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:29 pm

We will check...
Oh-eck :P

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Post by Hergio » Mon Sep 15, 2003 7:53 pm

I will be sifting through it tonight also. I agree, addressing isn't super tough, but I kinda think that some of these users are more design oriented and less code-jockey-esk. Not real technical. But then again, the job of a webmaster is to wear many, many hats! 8O
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Post by Andy » Mon Sep 15, 2003 8:00 pm

This is where a Windows App will be useful then?

BTW - I discovered Webmin today - Can't believe we've been struggling for so long. Check it out at http://www.webmin.com/ definitely on the ToDo list once we've figured out how secure it is. Most helpful if you run a Unix server.

Cheers
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Post by John » Mon Sep 15, 2003 8:05 pm

Jeez, there's a lot of stuff there! Might be fun to play around with it on my Linux/Apache box.
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Post by Hergio » Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:34 am

Took a look at the documentation, didn't see anything out of the ordinary. Even did a text search of the documents and could not find the word scriptpath, hehe. One thing, but they are small, but I think you like us to be picky... you did a nice job saying that a style is ABSOLUTELY necessary for a menu, but I dont remember seeing you say that you MUST have at least one menu item declared (an aI() ) in the menu. I removed all the aI's from a menu and it errored out on me. Not that people would do this on purpose, but they can, so its relevant. hehe picky picky picky.

Yeah Andy, thats where I think a GUI for building the menu would be a great help. It would allow the more artistic webmasters to get an awesome and powerful menu without having to get technical and mess with the nuts and bolts. But we would still allow for hands on customizability...if wanted.

That webmin looks like a great thing. Lots of functionality, I must say. I like the idea of using it.
Last edited by Hergio on Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by John » Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:37 am

Hergio wrote:Took a look at the documentation, didn't see anything out of the ordinary.
Shame. You missed the milonic_src.php (unless you pulled the file after Andy fixed it).
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Post by Hergio » Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:44 am

Yeah I actually downloaded it about 30 minutes ago, theres no record of the php reference that I can find. ;) But I woulda caught, I know it! hehe
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Post by John » Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:42 pm

That .php thing was trippin' up a lot of folks. Hopefully that's now put to bed.
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Post by Hergio » Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:06 pm

Andy, noticed the FAQ page on the main site still answers a question and uses scriptpath to answer it. Just FYI.
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Post by Ruth » Sun Sep 21, 2003 8:47 pm

Hello everyone,
I've been away for a bit. I just read the info and will mess with it, but wanted to say, as to the script paths. You're right on the more design oriented than tech-ish. Yes, if you're a webmaster you need to wear more than one hat, however....it's a term applied to ANYONE who does their own work on their own site and MANY are just guys with some personal pages for fun who are putting them up hit or miss with NO idea how things work. That was myself [and to be honest with a lot of the new stuff, it's like I'm back to that point :lol: ] It's kind of like the field of math, most math instructors CANNOT make analogies to the real world because in truth the math is NOT equivalent to that analogy, but for the student many can't 'visualize' outside of the real world so they feel lost and ultimately frustrated not knowing just what the 'functions' etc are doing. Heck, for a lot of the 'webmasters' they don't really know what they are seeing when they see directory structure.... They've never made the connection to the more or less analogous 'file cabinet' in the real world with it's drawers and files. And that's a decent analogy if you are telling them about scriptpath, just like finding a file in a cabinet, you have to know in which building[domain- http://www.etc] office resides [root directory] and the cabinets [sub-directories] and drawers [next level sub directory] to the files [all the stuff they upload. Not perfect but pretty realworld visual. ?? Ah well, just wanted to put in my two cents, :P

Ruth

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Post by bobwill » Mon Sep 22, 2003 3:17 pm

:evil: Don't force me to change all my "htm" because some folks cannot understand the "scriptpath" variable. I believe that there is so much confusion because of a lack of documentation and examples about the "scriptpath' variable. I think that you assume that people using the menu are javascript literate. Wrong assumption :!:

If the "scriptpath' variable is causing you a lot of questions to be asked them try to explain it all in one place, rather than having to search thru numerous forum questions to get the answer. Summarize and publish the "Doc". Give examples using both "relative and absolute" addressing. Don't talk techie. I develop my menus on my personal PC and FTP them to the server. Someone else develops menu directly on server. What is
difference betwen these two methods.

Also the answer from "jgillet", " As for me, when my sites start getting 'deep' I use includes for the calls, so it makes no difference. ", is a perfect example of what I am talking about. What the heck is an "includes". I have a hunch, but give an example. Techies just assume everyone else understands, because it is such a "simple" thing.

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Post by Andy » Mon Sep 22, 2003 3:33 pm

For starters, the scriptpath has now been removed as it was causing too much confusion. Not just for the newbie's but even for the more seasoned user. As the only reason we used it was to continue support for Netscape 4.0 we thought it wise to go back to a similar method that was in used version 3.0

On the issue of not explaining deeply enough. It's tough call. Knowing how to explain something giving enough detail without being patronizing is very difficult. I think in general the answers on this forum are pretty good and it's a very difficult job for the more complex stuff.

Documentation is something we are constantly working on and I do agree that it is very important to get this right.
I develop my menus on my personal PC and FTP them to the server. Someone else develops menu directly on server. What is
difference between these two methods.
It's a HUGE difference. Basically you are developing for a completely different system. The Internet and all that surrounds it is based on Unix and only Unix. These problems are only now apparent because Microsoft decided it wanted a piece of the action. When you develop a website on a PC you are using a DOS based file system which uses c:\root\dir\ to point to files Unix uses hd0:/root/dir/ and is the basis for the http, ftp, https protocols i.e. http://website.com/root/dir

In reality it's so much better to develop a website on a web server. Microsoft bundle both Personal Web Server and Internet information Server with their OS's, these are not that complicated to install and it means you can perfectly emulate a web server from your desktop.

I could go on all day about this but I need to get back to work

Hope this clears up one or two issues
Andy
Last edited by Andy on Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by John » Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:09 pm

bobwill wrote:Also the answer from "jgillet", " As for me, when my sites start getting 'deep' I use includes for the calls, so it makes no difference. ", is a perfect example of what I am talking about. What the heck is an "includes". I have a hunch, but give an example. Techies just assume everyone else understands, because it is such a "simple" thing.
All ya had to do was ask :)

OTOH, an include is a pretty standard item in HTML coding, and its function should be known. It is not "techie". Why no example? For that very reason, and the fact that the syntax is slightly different depending on the particular language you're using - HTML, CFML, PHP, etc.

We have to assume some level of knowledge here. To answer every question in step by step detail would not only be a giant waste of time (in most cases), but waste of server space as well. Again, if an answer is not understood, just ask.
bobwill wrote:Don't force me to change all my "htm" because some folks cannot understand the "scriptpath" variable.
You forget, we're still working with a beta system here. Changes will happen in such an environment. If that's not acceptable then simply wait for the final release.
bobwill wrote:I believe that there is so much confusion because of a lack of documentation and examples about the "scriptpath' variable. I think that you assume that people using the menu are javascript literate.
I disagree. The problem, IMHO, is that folks don't bother to read what has been posted. The docs explain it, and in the versions that still contained it, Andy had very clear notes in the code just below the scriptpath variable. They clearly stated both a leading and closing / was required. All the questions I dealt with involved incorrect paths because folks did not bother to read that. We saw everything except /path/.

Further, the information contained in scriptpath has nothing to do with Javascript. It is simply asking where certain files are located on your server - path info, not Javascript info.

Why was it explained in many different places? Because folks asked the same question over and over in many different places, rather than use the excellent Search feature built into the Forum.
John

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Post by Ruth » Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:20 pm

OK, to get back to the first subject..... :) What is it we're supposed to do now? Do we still upload all the same files but not put the scriptpath in the one file and put the coding you gave instead? I've not gotten mine up yet, I am just on the point of putting everything on the web so I want to make sure I do it the correct way....Thanks a bunch.

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Post by John » Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:32 pm

Exactly right. More info is in the install file included in the download.
John

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